SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

DRSOOLERS posted on another thread in JFO about requiring NC and how it ultimately amounts to needing to police a WS so that they don't continue crossing lines, whether due to "moral bankruptcy" or lack of control over one's sexual impulses. (Being a WS and not being able to respond in JFO, and also not wanting to TJ, I'm posting here.)I hadn't really thought about that before, and it does make some sense.

But I do want to add a few thoughts. The first is that a WS is often stuck in limerance or the "affair fog" on DDay. Whatever the WS is receiving from the AP can feel pretty addictive, and I imagine for some, hard to give up. For those people, I think an outside force demanding a hard stop to the affair relationship can be necessary to cut through the fog. Kind of like an alcoholic being required to stop drinking cold-turkey in order to detox from the alcohol and get back in control of their lives-- the intervention and renouncement is how the addiction is broken and kept broken.

I would not be able to say exactly what percentage of WS would voluntarily initiate NC without it being explicitly required of them by their BS, but I bet the percentage is low.

The second is that affair partners who are aware of the betrayal (especially the ones who are also partnered) are equally morally corrupt, and it's important for the WS to distance themselves from those kind of individuals going forward, if they are intent on recovering and changing themselves. Not only should you want to be away from that kind of potential influence/enablement, but you shouldn't want those kinds of people in your life to begin with.

The third is that think NC benefits the BS because there is simply no more interaction for them to worry about constantly. It would really suck to wonder if your unfaithful spouse is acting appropriately or cheating again every time they're interacting with the "former" AP. Obviously it's just a bunch of unnecessary stress and triggering for them to continue having any sort of contact. Once broken out of the affair fog, if there's any chance of reconciliation, the WS should develop that empathy for their BS and not even want to cause that stress by interacting with the AP. But, in case that empathy isn't immediate, the BS ought to demand NC as a condition for potential reconciliation, if not to police their WS, but for their own well-being/peace of mind.

Maybe all of this is like, "Yeah, duh." Just thought I'd get it out there anyway.

ETA: I think what is important to consider is the WS's relationship to the boundary of NC over time. Initially they may feel like their spouse is policing them, and they're only maintaining NC because their BS won't "let" them. Then it may become that maintaining NC can be difficult at times, but they know it's important because they don't want to hurt their BS any further. Then maybe it becomes, "I don't even want contact with AP because s/he isn't someone I want in my life, even if I'm perfectly capable of behaving appropriately around them," in which case NC doesn't even feel like a restriction anymore...

In other words, does the initially imposed NC require *continual* policing by the BS, or does it *eventually* become naturally, effortlessly, voluntarily, self-imposed by the WS? If the former is true, reconciliation probably has a low chance of success. But if the latter is true, I'd imagine the chance of reconciliation is higher.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 7:29 AM, Friday, August 14th]

Just for context, this came about when: I literally started writing out the standard, formulaic advice about the critical importance of NC in reconciliation, and as I was typing it, I stopped, stepped back, and realized the disturbing implications of what I was actually advocating. I then started to unravel these implications and grew more and more alarmed by them. This is probably not a great revelation to all but I'd simply not thought about it this way.

Your breakdown of limerence, the addiction mechanics, and how a unfaithful partner hopefully matures into self-imposed No Contact seems spot-on to me psychologically. I don't dispute that’s how the engine works when a couple somehow manages to pull off reconciliation.

Where we part ways isn't about how No Contact works, but the absolute absurdity that it needs to be explained to a grown adult in the first place.

Comparing an unfaithful spouse to an alcoholic needing a cold-turkey intervention is a simile I entirely expect, but that’s precisely my point. If your spouse is so completely out to lunch on their own ego and hormones that they require an explicit direct order to stop talking to the person they were shagging behind your back, you aren't in a marriage anymore. You’re running an adult daycare centre.

I have zero issue with someone who wakes up on D-Day, looks at the carnage, gets hit by a wave of basic human shame, and cuts the affair partner off instantly without being asked. That at least hints at a lingering pulse of moral self-awareness.

However, if the betrayed partner has to spell it out like a chore chart for a toddler, we've entirely lost the plot. It's a angle I hadn't fully weighed up before because No Contact seems like such blind common sense, yet having to demand it really does reveal more than I had considered. The fact that refraining from contacting an affair partner has to be laid down as a negotiated boundary, rather than being an automatic reflex, is the exact reason the house is already burnt to the ground.

Look at what the betrayed spouse is actually expected to swallow while waiting for this evolution you described. They're supposed to sit there, completely traumatised, taking deep breaths while their partner slowly detoxes off the affair and grows a conscience in real time. "Oh, don't mind me, darling, you just take a few weeks to sober up off the affair fog and figure out if I deserve basic human respect."

Personally, I find that stance utterly incompatible with self-respect. That is fine, as many people are willing to trade away a bit of their dignity for the life they want to save, but I certainly wouldn't advocate for it.

I don't doubt that for the percentage of people who pull off reconciliation, the journey from forced restriction to genuine realization is how it happens. My point remains that having to demand the absolute floor of human decency from someone who promised to love you is a staggering tax to pay. Life is far too short to act as a parole officer for an adult who needs a written policy on why cheating is bad, even if it is only for a few months.

Some would argue a few months of playing warden is a small price to pay when set against a divorce. I can't argue with their math, but I know that I, and presumably many people like me, would end up hating themselves for putting up with it at all. Keep walking, get your peace back, and let them figure out basic right from wrong on someone else's time.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:59 AM, Friday, August 14th]

Well I think just about every WS knows cheating is morally wrong, the same way most drug addicts know that drugs destroy their health. But they're chasing that high, whatever they're getting from the A or the drug or the Bad Thing, no matter how high the cost. The BS who has to demand NC isn't waiting for their WS to figure out that the cheating is wrong, they're waiting for them to figure out it isn't worth it, to turn back to the marriage and choose their spouse over whatever the AP is giving them in that moment.

We've discussed on here before how BS can be split between the part of themselves that wants to maintain their principles and walk away from someone who has treated them poorly, and the part of themselves that still loves their WS and wants to keep the marriage, even after the betrayal. Attempting reconciliation, provided the WS demonstrates the remorseful behavior required of R, can be a form of self-respect, in that you're honoring what the latter part of you desires... It's a deeply individual thing, I think.

Like I said, I do think voluntarily, self-imposed NC probably indicates a higher likelihood of successful R than if the WS has to have it imposed on them. But that's also evaluating the WS right after DDay, when they're still psychologically a mess, and before they've had time to make any progress towards becoming a safe partner again... Well, that is, if they're caught in the affair or happen to blurt it out, rather than taking time to do some processing/preparation before self-disclosure (in which cases I imagine NC is generally self-imposed...)

I think it was around 3 hours after the initial confrontation on DDay that I sent the NC text to my AP (and part of that time was just having forgotten I had to do it, in the emotional chaos.) Unlike a lot of stories I hear, in my case, there was never any question in my mind about who I was picking. And honestly I don't remember if my BH directly asked me to go NC or not, but I already intellectually accepted that it was necessary to do it. That it was the right thing to do. Yet still, it was hard to send that text and cut myself off from my source of validation, connection, desire, etc. It took willpower, and it took willpower to maintain that NC for a while. But it's not hard anymore. I learned why it's important to H. I stopped wanting to know if AP had been lying to me or if he's still thinking about me. And H doesn't have to police me because I want nothing to do with that shitbag AP.

But I imagine it's different for someone who believes they've found a second true love, who are perhaps several months or years into their A instead of just a month...

Well I think just about every WS knows cheating is morally wrong, the same way most drug addicts know that drugs destroy their health

I'm not sure I fully accept that. Plenty of unfaithful spouses actively convince themselves they are entitled to the affair because their partner didn't invest enough time in them, help with the kids, or do their fair share of the dishes. In their minds, those perceived slights fully justify the betrayal, rendering it completely moral in their own distorted ledger.

Others lean heavily on the "what they don't know won't hurt them" logic, genuinely believing that if the partner never finds out, no harm was actually done. Then you have those who argue it isn't wrong simply because "everyone does it," usually because they were raised in dysfunctional environments or surrounded by questionable peers.

I can concede that the majority of cheaters likely know what they're doing is wrong on some level, but certainly not all. Moral gymnastics is a powerful drug in its own right.

Attempting reconciliation, provided the WS demonstrates the remorseful behavior required of R, can be a form of self-respect

Agreed. But having to demand No Contact—or negotiate it in any way—demonstrates on arrival that they aren't showing the remorseful behavior required for reconciliation.

But that's also evaluating the WS right after DDay, when they're still psychologically a mess, and before they've had time to make any progress towards becoming a safe partner again

This is a deeply personal view of mine, but I firmly believe it is far better to judge someone at their worst than at their best. When the chips are down, what sort of person are you? It is dead easy to be a decent human being when life is smooth sailing, but who are you when you're in the trenches?

I know it’s an extreme analogy, but consider Jimmy Savile. He was celebrated as one of the UK’s greatest philanthropists, raising tens of millions of pounds and saving countless lives through his charity work. Yet post-mortem, it was revealed he was a rampant predator who abused hundreds of victims. I don't know a single soul who says, "Yes, but look at the hospital wings he built." Everyone rightly views him as a monster. You could theoretically try to weigh his heart on the ancient Egyptian scales of justice and ask if he did more tangible good than bad, but it changes nothing. He remains a monster. Character is defined by your absolute baseline, not your performative highlights. But I won't try to convince you of that.

My partner knows my worst most immoral actions and I hers. Luckily in both instances, I don't think they are character shaking choices.

The BS who has to demand NC isn't waiting for their WS to figure out that the cheating is wrong, they're waiting for them to figure out it isn't worth it

Even if I grant you that, let’s rephrase what that actually looks like:

Look at what the betrayed spouse is expected to swallow while waiting for this evolution. They are supposed to sit there, completely traumatised, taking deep breaths while their partner slowly detoxes off the affair and decides whether stabbing the person they vowed to love in the back is worth the cheap thrill the affair gives them.

Does that reframe make it sound any better? It feels markedly worse to me.

At the end of the day, this is entirely individual, and there is no universal right or wrong answer. Some people have no qualms whatsoever wallowing in the dirt if it maintains a comfortable life. Others don't view wallowing in the dirt as lacking dignity at all, so long as it’s their partner's dirt and not their own. Meanwhile, others would gladly torch a comfortable life to the ground just to be proud of the person looking back at them in the mirror.

Though, frankly, it never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to navigate their entire lives without ever bothering to look in the mirror at all.

Either way, I hope this discussion is useful to someone.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 12:17 PM, Friday, August 14th]

In other words, does the initially imposed NC require *continual* policing by the BS, or does it *eventually* become naturally, effortlessly, voluntarily, self-imposed by the WS?

On Dday I issued ultimatums...the first one being that my H was to send the adultery co-conspirator a NC message and then never contact her again. I was NOT going to police him. IF he ever made contact with her after that...the M was over...PERIOD. My H didn't even hesitate...and sent the NC message immediately.

I do want to add that when the adultery co-conspirator wrote back...she was very hurt and confused. I then told him to send her another message...making it CLEAR to her what was happening. After that my H has never contacted the adultery co-conspirator again. He would let me know when she tried contact though.

There is a saying on here that you have to be willing to LOSE the M in order to SAVE it. I told my H on Dday that he didn't have to do ANY of the ultimatums I stated...but if he didn't do EVERY ONE...I was leaving. I meant it and HE KNEW I meant it. I didn't know about SI on Dday...but I had experience from when my 1st H cheated on me...and my lizard brain took control and was AMAZING when my H confessed about his A!

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts on this ! NC is very important to start breaking the ties to the adultery co-conspirator...and start rebuilding ties with the BS. Although ALL A's follow a pattern...two selfish people who use each other for their own desires...getting to recovery for a BS has many paths. NONE of them are right or wrong...just different. What works for one may not work for another depending on the situation. But NC is critical for R...and the sooner the Wayward starts it and keeps it...the better .

When people show up here, BS and WS alike, they’re somewhere on a spectrum of trauma. For the BS, that tends to sit at the higher end. For the WS, it varies wildly, which means logic, emotional regulation, and self‑awareness are all unreliable in the early days.

This site is called Surviving Infidelity for a reason.

Over two decades of collective experience, research, and lived outcomes have shaped a kind of survival manual. It’s not theoretical. It’s not philosophical. It’s what consistently keeps people alive and sane in the aftermath of betrayal.

And in that manual, NC verification is step one. Not because it’s morally profound.
Not because it’s intellectually complex. But because it’s the first stabilizing action in a crisis.

Yes, it’s a no‑brainer. No one disputes that.

But you’re missing what it does when it’s done with the BS.

There is something almost regulating, grounding, even, about hearing your WS say directly to the AP

"This is over. Do not contact me. I am choosing my spouse."

For the BS, it’s the first moment their nervous system gets a breath.

For the WS, it’s the first moment they confront the reality of their choices out loud.

It was the first thing I did after my BH handed my phone back, I blocked the AP immediately. No goodbye, no closure, no NC letter. Just blocked. I told my BH afterward. Then I posted on SI the next day, and it was suggested that I do a verbal NC with my BH present. He agreed. Saying those words in front of my BH humbled me in a way I could never convey with language. It wasn’t a demand. It wasn’t a chore chart. It was a reset, a line drawn in real time that both people could see and feel.

That’s the part you're overlooking.

You’re framing NC as a moral IQ test, "If they don’t do it automatically, they’re beneath dignity."

But NC isn’t about morality. It’s about triage.

Some WS are in limerence withdrawal
Some are in denial
Some are in shock
Some are still rationalizing
Some are cake‑eaters who thought they were getting away with it
Some are avoidant and terrified
Some are narcissistic
Some are simply emotionally stunted

There is a spectrum of WS mindsets, and pretending they all operate from the same psychological place is just inaccurate. You don’t have to relate to it for it to be true.

A WS is either going to choose NC or they aren’t.

But when NC is done with the BS, you establish

baseline transparency
baseline cooperation
baseline willingness
baseline tolerance for accountability

All of this "can" be very telling on how this is going to go. From there, the BS can make informed decisions instead of reacting from shock.

That’s not daycare. That’s crisis management. And it’s the difference between a BS navigating trauma with clarity versus navigating trauma blindfolded.

For many unfaithful spouses, I do not think the AP is actually the drug.

The container of the affair is.

The secrecy, transgression, escape, compartmentalization, fantasy, and the ability to step outside of normal life can create an altered state that is extremely compelling. The AP becomes the person associated with access to that state.

In some cases, the AP could almost be anyone. Sometimes an undesirable or low-stakes AP may even make that easier. There is less risk of "messing it up." The AP can become a blank slate onto which the unfaithful spouse projects whatever they want or need in that moment. The relationship does not have to survive normal life because normal life was never really the point.

That is why I think some unfaithful spouses misunderstand what they are reluctant to give up after D-Day. They may describe it as validation, connection, desire, or missing the AP. Sometimes that may be true, I am not convinced its usually true.

But sometimes I think what they are actually reluctant to lose is the feeling created by the affair itself.

They do not necessarily miss the person. They miss who they got to be inside that container. This is also why I think NC matters for reasons beyond reassuring the betrayed spouse. Continued contact preserves the container.

Even if the contact is supposedly platonic, the AP remains connected to that secret world, that identity, that fantasy, and that altered emotional state. The doorway is still there. NC closes it.

Then the unfaithful spouse actually has to confront what they were getting from the affair and why they needed that particular environment to access it. Sometimes the answer may be that the AP did not really give them much at all. The affair did.

I agree that ultimately NC should be the unfaithful spouse's choice. I do not think a betrayed spouse should have to spend years policing another adult and making sure they do not contact the person they cheated with.

But reconciliation without NC is extreme hard mode.

The unfaithful spouse is free to choose continued contact with the AP.

The betrayed spouse is equally free to say, "Then I am not going to attempt reconciliation with you."

If the unfaithful spouse refuses NC, I think most betrayed spouses should seriously consider ending the relationship rather than attempting to rebuild while the doorway back into the affair state is still being deliberately held open.

That is not policing. That is deciding what conditions you are willing to reconcile under.

For wider context—to anyone who hasn't read the thread this was taken from—this discussion was specifically about a betrayed spouse having to negotiate, demand, or enforce No Contact. Which, frankly, sounds very different to the voluntary, self-initiated case you just described.

You’re framing NC as a moral IQ test, "If they don’t do it automatically, they’re beneath dignity."

But NC isn’t about morality. It’s about triage.

I don't see those as mutually exclusive at all. It can easily be both.

Some WS are in limerence withdrawal

Some are in denial

Some are in shock

Some are still rationalizing

Some are cake‑eaters who thought they were getting away with it

Some are avoidant and terrified

Some are narcissistic

Some are simply emotionally stunted

There is a spectrum of WS mindsets, and pretending they all operate from the same psychological place is just inaccurate. You don’t have to relate to it for it to be true.

I’m certainly not pretending they all operate from the same psychological place. Any single item on the list you provided could very well explain the reluctance.

However, if every single reason on that list ultimately leads to the same end point—a betrayed spouse having to negotiate, demand, or enforce No Contact—the underlying psychology ceases to matter. The outcome is identical.

It is beneath dignity to have to enforce basic decency on a partner. It is beneath dignity to have to negotiate with an adult on whether they should stop communicating with the person they betrayed you with, or to issue ultimatums just to get them to stop.

I’d argue that any form of reluctance on the unfaithful partner's part is about as red a flag as you can possibly get, and at that point, reconciliation shouldn't even remain on the table. If a betrayed spouses asks for this, that should be the end of it. If a wayward spouse at that point requires their arm twisting, they simply aren't worthy of your time. In an ideal world, it should be self supposed immediately by the cheater. Which does happen. Suppose it depends how desperate one is to continue with the relationship.

The idea that a betrayed partner has to plead with their partner for them to do the bare minimum is what I'm trying to push back on. It's already humiliating enough to be cheated on without that on your conscience. We need to stop viewing a wayward spouse as a prize to hold onto, and start seeing them as a cost you have to decide if you can truly afford.

You frame enforcing NC as "crisis management" and "triage." I see it as a traumatised person taking on the emotional labour of managing an adult who should have managed themselves. When a spouse has to step into the role of warden or referee just to secure the absolute baseline of respect, the relationship dynamic is already fatally broken.

You can call it triage if you like, but some of us simply refuse to be the medical staff for the person who stabbed us.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:32 PM, Friday, August 14th]

It is beneath dignity to have to enforce basic decency on a partner. It is beneath dignity to have to negotiate with an adult on whether they should stop communicating with the person they betrayed you with, or to issue ultimatums just to get them to stop.

How is it "beneath dignity" to tell a WS one will not tolerate infidelity. The day after d-day, I told my ex-wife that "I will not be married to a cheater." Is that not the very essence of dignity? A simple expression of my own value and self-worth? It wasn't an ultimatum; it was a simple truth.

I fail to understand how a BS insisting upon No Contact is in any way, shape or form undignified.

I agree- the affair feelings are the drug, not the ap. Literally that’s why it’s so confusing when the AP is ugly, broke, a degenerate and so many other descriptions have heard over the years.

Having and stating boundaries is not weak, and then and adult relationships we state them all the time.

I don’t think it’s what drives reconciliation. It drives recovery. The healthiest thing to do in the beginning is to say "we are going to work on ourselves and our healing for a while and depending on how that goes I may consider reconciling with you"

Both the ws and bs can have and state boundaries and they can create ground rules together. Transparency should be given, it should not be established as the bs feels like they desperately have to spy, if they are made to feel that way recovery can’t begin and that sets the stage for reconciliation or divorce.

My husband and I have actually always been able to get in each others phone. While pre-affair it was more hey I am driving check if so and so texted and tell them x"

NC is a must, both partners should agree to it, or there is no cooperation to move forward. It’s not week, it’s never felt like an ultimatum to me, it seemed more like what are we even doing here if you aren’t willing to focus on us 100 percent?"

GTM

I would not be able to say exactly what percentage of WS would voluntarily initiate NC without it being explicitly required of them by their BS, but I bet the percentage is low.

That is an insightful comment. Most affairs start gradually, and the WS can think that it can end gradually. Return to the status quo before lines were crossed.

I saw it with my wife. It took a bit before she realized that we threw away an entire friend network.

This conversation is thought provoking to me. I understand both perspectives of the two main posters in the thread. Reading the respectful back and forth has made me think about our own saga with NC.

It has now been 16 months since DDay #3 and NC. However, after DDay #1, there were 19 months of NC before my W relapsed and resumed and intensified her A. Then another DDay and what I thought was another period of NC (which was fake and a 2 year A relapse continued).

It sounds so crazy to actually type out (and i've told my story in my own threads and been told I was naive, which I completely understand), but I DO believe that this time the NC is permanent. I DO believe we are reconciling genuinely this time. Our individual IC and MC has been much different this time, and the last 16 months have been harder but more productive than any period of "reconciliation" before.

But I do wonder often how my W was able to keep this up. Sometimes I wonder if she is secretly someone I don't know... what part of her nature allowed her to risk so much and break that NC multiple times after seeing the pain and damage... what hikingout proposed about the affair being the drug, rather than the AP... and I wonder what part of me allowed me to remain in it and keep fighting for it. The biblical perspective on all of these things is one thing (and for sure it is my primary motivation for how we've handled all this), but the psychological aspect is what I often ponder...

[This message edited by Carpenter81 at 4:13 PM, Friday, August 14th]

DRS

Ok fair, I didn’t read the context of the original thread this was taken from. But I also feel like you didn’t read my post at all. It doesn’t feel like you responded to anything I actually said. Weird, but ok.

I wasn’t talking about forcing a WS into NC, negotiating NC, or dragging a reluctant partner into compliance. Nothing I wrote was about coercion. Where did you get that from my post?

Was it the list of WS mindsets? That list was added to show the range of psychological states WS arrive here in, not to justify reluctance. It was also followed immediately with WSs are either going to choose NC or not.

My point was about what NC does when it’s done TOGETHER with the BS. The reassurance, the transparency, the accountability, the reality check it provides for both people. That is a very different conversation than the one you responded to. Why?

You framed my position as though I was defending the idea of a BS having to demand NC. I wasn’t. I was describing the impact, the BENEFIT of NC when it’s requested or voluntary, immediate, and done TOGETHER. That is the exact opposite of the scenario you seem to think I was talking about. Nothing you said had anything to do with what I said. It’s a bit strange.

I may not have read the original post, but that doesn’t make what I wrote any less true.

Does it not get exhausting to argue simply for the sake of arguing?

Does it not get exhausting to argue simply for the sake of arguing?

For some, no, it gives them life and is the main motivation...

So far, this is the first time I think I agree with everyone’s view and opinion on this subject.

Also, foreverlabeled needs to write a book on infidelity. It would be a crime not to.

Carpenter81 ( member #86784) posted at 9:13 AM on Friday, August 14th, 2026

This conversation is thought provoking to me. I understand both perspectives of the two main posters in the thread. Reading the respectful back and forth has made me think about our own saga with NC.

Me, too. I've almost posted probably 5 times now and stopped.

In the beginning NC was probably one of the biggest sticking points for me. She battled and fought me on that for about a month and kept playing the "we're just friends now" card. Aside from the actual d day, which was an entirely different nightmare, that period was one of the most painful, stressful periods in my life. This thread is actually a bit triggering for me, but the conversation is very compelling and I can't stop reading it.

I put up with it. I tolerated it. I tried to be understanding because she has epilepsy and doesn't have many people in her life that can really relate to what she goes through in dealing with it. AP is also epileptic.

I finally broke. I threw in the towel. I told her that if maintaining a relationship with him is that important to her she could have him. But not while remaining married to me. I then got online, looked up divorce lawyers and started making phone calls. I set up 3 consultations. She stood there and watched me do it. By the the time I hung up from the third phone call she realized I was serious.

That was when everything changed. She broke down and almost went into hysterics. She got on her knees and literally begged me to not go through with it. I was completely apathetic to her hysterics and told her "you made your decision when you didn't stop me from making those calls." I didn't budge. She sent a NC message to AP and blocked him on everything. The next day she put in for a location transfer at work. I didn't tell her to do it, she just did it. I mean, obviously she knew that's what I wanted, but after I made those calls I was done. I was resigned. It was officially over as far as I was concerned. I wasn't going to tell her what to do or what I wanted anymore.

Her attitude completely changed and everything became about me instead of her. She began to start winning me over. I was the prize and she was willing to do anything to fix what she now knew she had fatally broken. A couple of days later I canceled the appointments.

She's spent every single day out of the last 15 months prioritizing our marriage and proving to me that I'm the one she wants. She never broke NC and it didn't take long for her to start referring to him as "loser," "scumbag," and "dirtbag." She won't say his name. The funny thing about people who have had TBI's is that they tend to have very black and white thinking. There isn't much grey area with her. Once she turned that corner she's been all in, 100%.

I don't police her, I'm not her warden, and she hasn't and doesn't do anything at all to make me feel unsafe anymore. Tho the trauma from the experience did leave my nervous system on high alert for a while, I'm much calmer now and no longer hyper vigilant. I haven't been for a long time. She voluntarily and unsolicited goes to great lengths to keep me updated on where she is and what she's doing at all times. Which, to be fair, isn't hard since I'm her chauffeur and we do pretty much everything together now aside from the occasional hair or nail appointment and occasional visits with one of her good friends who wasn't tied to anything involving her affair. One of the few who told her she needed to get her shit together.

I'm no longer concerned about her breaking NC or slipping up with anyone else. She's fully devoted to me again and she makes me feel like I'm the center of her universe. We've both made some big changes. Things are going about as well as I could hope for as far as recovering from this nightmare and remaining in a relationship with her.

But man, this thread has really got me thinking about and remembering the sheer hell I went through for that first month. It was awful. I cannot put into words just how terrible it was watching her struggle and fight with me about something that was so simple and so basic as a no contact boundary. I really wish she would have just done it voluntarily right off the bat instead of me having to, as Doc Soolers said, "spell it out like a chore chart for a toddler." Then have to go through the stress of resigning myself to a divorce and making those phone calls. Tho if I'm wishing I suppose I should go back to the beginning and not have it happen at all...

We're probably going to have an intense discussion about this tonight.

Also, foreverlabeled needs to write a book on infidelity. It would be a crime not to.

haha!

Title ideas

Infidelity: Lessons Learned the Hard Way So You Don’t Have To.

Or

Surviving Infidelity: A Practical Guide to Terrible Decisions.

(I've thought about it a time or two)

I'm not sure I would say they need to do it automatically, but the WS should value their relationship enough over the affair to fight to keep NC. If they don't the marriages chances falls dramatically. A marriage can only take so much damage and survive. Keeping in contact is taking additional shots to the BS and marriage. There's only so many shots the BS and marriage can take before it becomes fatal to the relationship.

I agree on the non-policing. Forcing the BS to police the WS is unhealthy for all involved. You're not going to be able to police a WS to keep them faithful. They are going to want to find reasons within themselves to be faithful where they didn't before. Not saying don't check at all as the WS has proven themselves capable of it. Just don't make it a full time job. Random spot checks just make sense.

The third is that think NC benefits the BS because there is simply no more interaction for them to worry about constantly. It would really suck to wonder if your unfaithful spouse is acting appropriately or cheating again every time they're interacting with the "former" AP.

Just a word of caution here. When the WS proudly announces that they are going no contact, don’t be fooled into thinking that the BS thinks they now have nothing to worry about. In most cases the affairs take place in secret. They have been fooled once and even though the spouse may no longer be a member of the gym as the AP, or see them at work, it will take a long time to get back the security where they aren’t wondering constantly if contact has still been maintained.

In my case, I had her have the AP fired so he was no longer seeing her every day. It might have brought some solace, but not much. I worked and commuted an hour and a half on trains so my schedule was like clock work. She knew during the affair with virtual certainty that I wasn’t going to come home and catch them. She also double protected herself during the affair by talking with me on the phone at work, knowing I wasn’t going to surprise them.

After the affair I would leave work in the middle of the day randomly and just come home. I had never done that before without calling.

I also in the beginning had the PI that I used to do a drive by where he would park in front of the house randomly for an hour. The first time she called and was wondering why he was parked there and when I told her he was making sure her boyfriend didn’t show up she was crushed. She cried telling me she told me it was over and I had nothing to worry about. I told her I thought I had nothing to worry about before her affair and look where that got me.

My point being there has to be NC, but it will take years to develop the trust back.

DRSOOLERS,

I'm not sure I fully accept that. Plenty of unfaithful spouses actively convince themselves they are entitled to the affair because their partner didn't invest enough time in them, help with the kids, or do their fair share of the dishes. In their minds, those perceived slights fully justify the betrayal, rendering it completely moral in their own distorted ledger.

That's the part where they start deluding themselves because they know it's wrong. I can tell you, as someone who felt extremely guilty the entire time my A was going on, that cognitive dissonance is not a fun thing to deal with. Betraying your own values takes a lot of mental gymnastics... But deep down, most WS know. You'd basically have to be a sociopath not to believe that cheating is wrong, and true sociopathy is relatively rare.

I can concede that the majority of cheaters likely know what they're doing is wrong on some level, but certainly not all. Moral gymnastics is a powerful drug in its own right.

So we agree there. After discovery, WS must detangle all the justification and rationalizations they created to allow themselves to cheat in order to stop doing it and end their A. That can take time. It can also be quite difficult as the WS starts to fully take in how shitty of a person they've been to their spouse, of all people. Much more comfortable to stay in the affair fog/delulu land, doped up on limerence and validation... Like I said, sometimes that external pressure for NC is necessary to help shake them out of it, like, "Hello!!! The consequences of your bad decisions are HAPPENING NOW! Wake up and make your choice, because you can't have both anymore!"

And I think setting that boundary-- "you can't remain in contact with AP and remain my spouse"-- is inherently self-respecting, though I suppose it is debatable how long one ought to wait for NC to happen before deciding it's over. You're saying it ought to be immediate, and self-imposed, and while I hear the logic behind it, I think maybe it's an unrealistic expectation. I'd say a week, maybe two max, with the 180 beginning ASAP while contact is still happening... Others would surely give different answers.

But of course, rarely is the response to finding out about a betrayal a cool and calculated one, to be able to respond with maximum dignity and prudence.I would add that a lot of BS don't even stop to think about whether or not they should have to demand NC; they often just do it in the initial confrontation, and then there's not even a chance for the WS to decide that for themselves. I don't know how many BS would have the wherewithal in the crashing tsunami of emotions on DDay to set that test and see it through to get meaningful results.

This is a deeply personal view of mine, but I firmly believe it is far better to judge someone at their worst than at their best. When the chips are down, what sort of person are you? It is dead easy to be a decent human being when life is smooth sailing, but who are you when you're in the trenches?

Look at what the betrayed spouse is expected to swallow while waiting for this evolution. They are supposed to sit there, completely traumatised, taking deep breaths while their partner slowly detoxes off the affair and decides whether stabbing the person they vowed to love in the back is worth the cheap thrill the affair gives them.

Does that reframe make it sound any better? It feels markedly worse to me.

I mean, I get it. You need to be able to rely on a spouse through good times and bad, in sickness and in health, etc., and the trust is shattered after infidelity. Infidelity is a demonstration of the capacity for incredible selfishness; maintaining contact with the AP after DDay, even more so. And it's clear enough to you that you would not want to be with someone who has demonstrated that they can betray you when conditions are less than ideal. But it's not so cut and dry for other BS. There's that pesky thing with loving the WS still, and not wanting the marriage to end. At that point they have to evaluate if there's potentialfor the WS to improve, for them to make "their worse" less bad, and ensure that they don't respond this way in the future again. And I get it, not every BS is willing to sit through the pain while that happens, and gamble their hearts again in order to find out. Some are.

At the end of the day, this is entirely individual, and there is no universal right or wrong answer. Some people have no qualms whatsoever wallowing in the dirt if it maintains a comfortable life. Others don't view wallowing in the dirt as lacking dignity at all, so long as it’s their partner's dirt and not their own. Meanwhile, others would gladly torch a comfortable life to the ground just to be proud of the person looking back at them in the mirror.

I would challenge the designation of attempting R in general as inherently "wallowing in the dirt" and the assumption about whether and what they see when looking in the mirror. That's your own perspective, and it comes off as extremely judgmental towards the BS doing it. Gently, it's not very kind of you. They're already dealing with so much... Not to attack your person or anything, but I think that perhaps you struggle to look through others' lenses. Conviction can be a strength sometimes; other times, it can lapse into mental inflexibility.

-------

NMI, I like the triage metaphor.

ETA: to be fair to DRSOOLERS, though, I do think you should go read his comments in JFO. The scope of his argument was limited to the BS having to demand/require/negotiate/enforce NC.

------

I also agree with the affair-feelings being the drug, not the AP, but again, It usually takes time for a WS to figure that out. And imagine how it must be for those who never find this site or other supportive, knowledgeable communities... How likely are they to figure it out on their own, without being gifted any sort of direction?? I don't know if I would have.

-----

That is an insightful comment. Most affairs start gradually, and the WS can think that it can end gradually. Return to the status quo before lines were crossed.

Thanks, HouseOfPlane. Yeah, it's basically the bargaining stage of grief for the WS when having to end the relationship. They are trying to figure out how to keep the AP in their life, or at least wean off them, so it's not so hard to deal with losing what the A was giving them... I feel really lucky to have understood that wasn't a possibility, to have known the entire duration of the A that the relationship was always temporary. Other WS don't have that in their mental toolboxes on DDay, so to speak.

------

NC is a must, both partners should agree to it, or there is no cooperation to move forward. It’s not weak, it’s never felt like an ultimatum to me, it seemed more like what are we even doing here if you aren’t willing to focus on us 100 percent?"

- Hikingout

This!

------

Does it not get exhausting to argue simply for the sake of arguing?

For some, no, it gives them life and is the main motivation...

For me, as my signature says, engaging in argument and debate is a way to test my hypotheses and get a better grasp on Reality. I like to be able to say "I think abc because xyz..." and crowdsource the identification of holes and alternative hypotheses. I love it when people point out something I hadn't considered, because then I can amend my worldview and/or make my position stronger. I don't want to be right, I want to be Accurate.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 7:52 PM, Friday, August 14th]