SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

After my last post I decided I couldn't keep carrying this around. Whatever was going on, I felt like I owed it to both of us to tell my wife exactly what I knew and exactly how I was feeling instead of silently watching.

One thing that pushed me to that point was that her contact with Marcus never really stopped. Nothing inappropriate in the messages I saw, but they were talking constantly about a fashion project. Ines was involved too, and it looked like they were all passing information back and forth. I also realized my wife was planning to meet a designer at Friday's gala. She never mentioned the project, Marcus helping her, or wanting to meet anyone there. That really bothered me because in 17 years of relationship we've always talked about things like that.

On Thursday night I finally sat her down. I told her I knew she had met Marcus after the party, that she was now working on a project with him, that she had become close with Ines, and that I knew about the gala plans. I also admitted that after everything that happened on girls' night, I couldn't shake the feeling that she had cheated on me.

The first thing she asked was, "Were you reading my WhatsApp and Instagram?" I told her yes.

She got genuinely angry. She said, "Oh wow... so you've been spying on me behind my back?"

She wanted to know what else I'd checked. I told her nothing more.
Then I asked about the two times she had said she didn't regret that night.

She explained that she meant she regretted taking drugs and partying without thinking, and that she accepted she crossed a line in our marriage by putting herself in that situation. According to her, that was what she meant not that she had slept with anyone. She looked me in the eye and said nothing sexual happened that night.

I told her I wanted to believe her.
But then I asked why she never told me about working with Marcus or meeting him at the launch.

She said she honestly didn't think it was important because it was work. She reminded me that she meets men every day through her career and doesn't tell me about every client because, to her, they're simply professional relationships.

I pushed further. I asked why she let Marcus disrespect me that night when he joked that I was jealous because she was out partying and having fun.

She brushed it off and said it was just a joke. Then I told her something I'd been avoiding saying.

I admitted I wasn't comfortable with Marcus anymore. Or Ines. Or really that whole group. I also told her I wasn't comfortable going to the gala.

She said she understood why I felt uncomfortable. She said if I didn't want to attend, she respected that decision, but she was still planning to go because it was an important networking opportunity for her career.

That's when I lost my temper. I told her I didn't want her going at all. I said I wanted her to end the project with Marcus and cut contact with everyone from that group if she respected me and our marriage.

She was quiet for a while. Then she calmly said she was still going.

Not because of Marcus, but because this was a major opportunity for her career and ultimately for our family. She reminded me that in 17 years together she had never given me a reason to think she was cheating before this. She said she had never cheated on me, believed my insecurity came from what happened that night, and said she wasn't going to throw away an opportunity because of assumptions. She also said she didn't believe going to the gala would end our marriage.

Friday night she left wearing the green gown I bought her for our fifth anniversary. She looked beautiful.

We barely spoke before she left. She just said she'd be home before midnight and reminded me to take care of the kids.

During the evening she texted me twice, sent me five pictures from the event including a selfie, and shared her live location. I don't know whether she did that because she knew how I was feeling or simply because she always shares her location for safety, but despite how angry I was, I appreciated that she kept me updated.

She came home around 11 p.m. I was already in bed.

The next morning she made me coffee and sat beside me. She spoke very softly. She said she hated seeing us like this and understood why I was hurting, even if she disagreed with some of my conclusions. She told me she loved me, loved our family, and wasn't choosing Marcus over our marriage. She said the gala was about her career, not another man, and that she had tried to reassure me by keeping me updated all evening because she wanted me to know she wasn't hiding anything.

She also told me she didn't want us to become a couple who controlled each other out of fear. She said she was willing to answer questions, be more open about work, and rebuild trust together, but she hoped I could eventually separate her professional life from what happened on that girls' night. She reached for my hand and told me she wanted us to get through this together.

I told her I'm still not okay with it.
I still want her to stop working with Marcus.

For context, this project is connected to one of the biggest fashion events in Milan this November. It's a huge opportunity for her career, and she'll probably earn somewhere between $300k-$400k from it by the end of the year. Marcus is apparently helping coordinate parts of it.

Financially, we're already comfortable. I've worked in finance for 12 years and make around $300k. My wife makes around $220k. We have a good life already.

So from where I'm sitting, I keep asking myself the same question.
Why risk our marriage over one project? Maybe that's unfair.
Maybe I'm letting one terrible night color everything that came after.

Or maybe my instincts are trying to tell me something. I honestly don't know anymore.

Today she took the kids out because I had to work. Normally we'd all spend the weekend together.

Instead I'm sitting here wondering whether I'm asking for a reasonable boundary or whether my fear is slowly turning into control.

I still don't trust Marcus. I genuinely believe he'd sleep with my wife if he had the chance. The bigger question is whether I trust my wife enough to believe she never would.

Honestly i feel like I lose control because I don't know what to do next!!

Now you know that your wife values her career over your relationship. Sorry

ETA: Hang on. If I remember correctly in a message to Marcus she said she did not regret what she did that night but during this conversation she regrets what she did?

[This message edited by WB1340 at 12:19 PM, Sunday, June 28th]

Hang on. If I remember correctly in a message to Marcus she said she did not regret what she did that night but during this conversation she regrets what she did?

Regarding that text she said it's about Drugs and having fun night without thinking anything for one night!!

You said at the villa they paired off and danced with men. I'd ask her about that. Who she paired off with. What did she feel when she was dancing with that man. What was the dancing like? Did they kiss.

To me that was being very intimate with another man. Is that how she intends to act for the rest of your marriage? Does that in her mind show respect to her husband? Is that something you can live with her doing the next 40 years?

If it were me I'd ask her to research what it means to lose your spouse's trust and what are ways to gain it back and ask if she is interested in doing that.

I wish you good luck in This difficult time.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:20 PM, Sunday, June 28th]

Did you ask her why Leonor brought two spare outfits to the festival?

Did you discuss with her discontinuing staying out all night doing drugs?

Pretty disappointing behavior from her. You told her you were uncomfortable with Marcus, that whole group, and the gala and her response was to remind you to take care of the kids on her way out the door.

I agree with Stevesn, she’s the one who’s got work to do on rebuilding trust together. Don’t apologize for a second about reading her texts (you shouldn’t have mentioned this, never reveal your sources!).

She also told me she didn't want us to become a couple who controlled each other out of fear

Uh, in what way is she controlling you out of fear?

Eh, doesn’t matter. You can’t control other people anyway - and it’s a miserable thing to try to do (trust me, I have teenagers). All you can have are personal boundaries delineating the behavior you’re unwilling to tolerate, and consequences for when they’re breached.

I think your position is reasonable. She crossed a line, as she admits. I think she should be willing to do what you need of her to fix it.

By the way, this bit makes no sense:

but she hoped I could eventually separate her professional life from what happened on that girls' night

But the people from that night are now intertwined in her professional life, no? How are you supposed to separate that out? If it’s "just professional" then WTF is she doing talking about her personal life (i.e., you) with Marcus? That text exchange was anything but professional.

Last suggestion: she should read Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. If there’s nothing going on with Marcus now, you want to make sure it stays that way.

You haven't gotten an answer to the question: What made you write you didn't regret anything when you're telling me you regret something about that night?'

And how did this morph from girls' nights out and actions at a party to actions about your W's career? Are they not 2 separate things?

AFAIK, SI is about dealing with the impact of infidelity. You're OK with GNOs, you seem to believe your W about the party, you seem to see the issue to be resolvable by adjustments to boundaries, and you seem to see the issue of the gala as one of who gets to decide if your W goes without you. I'm very sorry you're in conflict with your W, but I don't see infidelity here. Where is it?

Derk,

I am so glad you told her exactly what you think and feel. I am very sorry to hear that she did not respect you enough to take actions to protect your heart.

Quite honestly, after the years I have been reading Infidelity discussions....it would NOT be out of the ordinary for someone who cheated to lie and minimize and rationalize.

And the fact that she was mad you checked her accounts...that is telling to me too. I think married couples should have open books...period. One can have privacy when sitting on the toilet, but with matters related to relationship or things that could affect the relationship, there should be no privacy.

Sisoon, I am not sure why you say you don't see Infidelity here....or at least a very strong possibility that there could be? Many would argue that the conversations her and Marcus had were an infidelity. The likely sexual dancing....would be in my book.

And even though he may have been "ok" with certain type of conduct in the past, I think he can change and maybe reestablish a more protective boundary.

Derk,

I am not sure what this path looks like for you, but I really think it is important to make a stand regarding respect. If the roles were reversed and she said she was uncomfortable with a certain woman, and outright told her "too bad"....I would think she would not just get over that. Your wife needs to respect you. Be strong. 💪🏻

There are a few more red flags here that trouble me as an outsider looking in.

1) She was angry that you were "spying" on her and immediately asked what else you'd read. If she had nothing to hide then why the visceral reaction?

2) A sudden and unexpected opportunity to advance her career seems like something she'd be eager and excited to share with her husband. A meeting with an influential designer and hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential income seems like a reason to celebrate.

3) I don't know too many people who regret experimenting with recreational drugs unless it included a negative experience, such as a bad acid trip, hospital visit, or developing a long term, destructive habit. So long as nothing traumatic happened by such experimentation what's there to regret other than a bad hangover? If that was the case, why not share it?

She looked me in the eye and said nothing sexual happened that night.

4) Brother, cheaters lie. I'm sure you can imagine how many betrayed spouses on this site reported that their wayward spouses looked them straight in their eyes and flat out lied. I'm one of them.

5) She brushed off your feeling disrespected by Marcus' disrespectful comment that you're jealous that she had fun and you didn't. That's a bit too dismissive, I think. It's defection when it seems concern and empathy would be more natural.

6) She went to the gala despite your concerns and dismissed them as "your insecurities." She's never given you a reason to suspect she has cheated "before this," which might have been a Freudian slip, a subconscious admission that you now have a reason.

7) The texting and photos from the gala could be authentic sharing. I don't know her well enough to accurately access. It could also be a bit of virtue signalling, as if to assure you that nothing nefarious was going on that night just as with the night in question. Maybe not a huge red flag, but possible.

8) Control. Do you think she is actually concerned about you two controlling each other out of fear? Or do you think she is trying to control the narrative?

***

Maybe I'm letting one terrible night color everything that came after.

Or maybe my instincts are trying to tell me something. I honestly don't know anymore.

Trust your instincts. Our subconscious minds are far more cognizant than most of us give it credit.

Did you ask her why Leonor brought two spare outfits to the festival?

She said that Leonor usually brings extra outfits to music festivals or girls' nights out in case they need to change outfits during the evening.
It was a summer night, and all the dancing made them sweat. She said that once they got back to the villa, they changed into something lighter.

Pretty disappointing behavior from her. You told her you were uncomfortable with Marcus, that whole group, and the gala and her response was to remind you to take care of the kids on her way out the door.

She told me that it's okay if I don't come with her, but she's going anyway because it's good for networking. She said the money she earns from it is good for our family.

It was just Sofia being Sofia. Sometimes she does exactly what she wants, even when I'm not comfortable with it. Then the next day, she's much kinder and tries to soften me up.

Your wife speaks of trust.

That was not just a girl's night out. That was a night of mixed company.

A trustworthy partner avoids even the hint of inappropriate behavior; and never voluntarily places themselves in a situation where they say:"I know how it looks but you have to trust me".

Drugs, partying and spending the night at another mans house is a major fail that destroyed your trust.

What is her plan to rebuild trust?

Under the circumstances, she can no longer just say "trust me".

Sometimes she does exactly what she wants, even when I'm not comfortable with it. Then the next day, she's much kinder and tries to soften me up.

That’s come across very clearly. I don’t say this to be a dick, but from the little you’ve shared with us, it’s hard not to conclude that she doesn’t really respect you. It looks like the pattern is she does what she feels like, even with the knowledge that it’s going to hurt you, and then the next day she just bats her eyes at you and pats your hand and you’re managed.

Re-read what Unhinged wrote. All of it. Just to pick one thing from that list to highlight, from my standpoint, you’re not upset enough about her disrespecting you to Marcus - a man (if we believe her) she met the night before. She shit-talks you to strangers? Does she ever stick up for you?

Don’t be a doormat Derk. It’s not making you happy. Maybe you should read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It’s obvious that she’s not going to stop working with Marcus despite you telling her it’s causing you distress.

It was just Sofia being Sofia. Sometimes she does exactly what she wants, even when I'm not comfortable with it. Then the next day, she's much kinder and tries to soften me up.

This is clearly her manipulating you and it sounds like this is her typical behavior. Not how spouses should treat each other. How do you think she would react if you went out with the guys and did everything she did but with a group of women? Having some strange woman on your shoulders, drinking with them, going back to her house, more drinking, drugs, dancing, spending the night, coming home in a different outfit?

Would she just say hope you had a fun night?

I agree with Sisoon. Where is the infidelity?

Breaches in marriage? Yes.
Reasons to doubt her? Yes.
Behavior that can damage marriage? Yes.
In other words, I see marital issues but no real infidelity as we rather narrowly tend to define it on this site.

I see an unhealthy disregard for personal safety and age-appropriate responsibility and accountability. THIS IMHO is the key-issue and this should cause concern.

This is displayed in the hedonistic decision-process she used to justify going to the party after the festival (2 out of 4 decided not to…), taking the drugs, deciding to be there all night and the preparation in advance of bringing extra clothes. One question: Did all four have a change of clothing with them or only the two that went to the party? This might indicate if there was a predetermined decision to go rather than spur-of-the-moment or that having a change is "normal".

At that party she took drugs from a source she had no knowledge of.
She could easily have been slipped Rohypnol or some sedative.
Did she watch others snort from the same envelope and spoon? Was it only coke or were there some pills?
If she was so intoxicated/drugged that she slept some hours there then she was defenseless. That’s quite a risk…
Keep in mind that MOST rape is committed by people that the victim knows or even feels safe with. Ever heard of the concept "date-rape"

That there is no remorse or regret… THAT is IMHO the disturbing factor.
That there is no sense of "wow… that was stupid. I will never do THAT again. I’m glad I got away with that!".

It’s like someone got passed-out level drunk but still drove the 20 minute drive from the bar to home and then fell asleep in the driveway. Wakes up slumped over the steering wheel and crawls indoors. Like your wife after the party. Someone makes that sort of "mistake" and realizes how serious this is would probably not drive to the bar again. Nothing in your wife’s interaction makes me think she did anything wrong or took any serious risk.

That would be the BIG CONCERN with me.
What happens next time? Like if she’s in Milan and goes to a party? After all I get it that they can be important for business. But that time she’s just as thoughtless about the consequences and despite NO INTENTION to cheat – sips on that Rohypnol, or is slipped that pill that knocks her out, or drops acid, or sniffs the dirty cocaine, or is escorted back to the hotel by that nice guy who was so friendly but forces himself on her…

But I guess – on the plus side – you don’t have to worry about your health…

Have you asked her how she would feel if you and some male friends went to a concert/rave/festival where y'all rented an AirBNB, danced with younger girls, had a young girl on your shoulders and then later invited the group of girls back to the place you were staying for an afterparty where drugs were involved and the girls spent the night? Also, she wouldn't find out about it until she read the texts between you and the girl you were dancing with that night, oh! and the texts include a future lunch date being planned with the girl which you never mentioned to your wife.

She'd be ok with that?

If she tells you "Yes, I'd be ok with that." I would start exploring such out of town festivals and looking up nice AirBNBs and calling my buddies up to plan such a guy's trip that very night... and I wouldn't even attempt to hide my actions in front of my wife. But I admit I can be petty and vindictive. The following day I'd probably come to my senses and realize that my wife has certain boundary issues that need to be addressed, as well as concern for her drug use and acting like a college student when she's a wife and mother. I would ask my wife that I think she needs to talk to a license therapist to address these issues before she dives head first into a midlife crisis and blows everything up.

Have you asked her how she would feel if you and some male friends went to a concert/rave/festival where y'all rented an AirBNB, danced with younger girls, had a young girl on your shoulders and then later invited the group of girls back to the place you were staying for an afterparty where drugs were involved and the girls spent the night? Also, she wouldn't find out about it until she read the texts between you and the girl you were dancing with that night, oh! and the texts include a future lunch date being planned with the girl which you never mentioned to your wife.

She might not be okay with that. I might end up sleeping on the couch for a week! L She's still a bit possessive of me and gets kind of jealous about my interactions with other women not in a controlling way, but especially if they're good-looking.

She'd be ok with that?

If she tells you "Yes, I'd be ok with that." I would start exploring such out of town festivals and looking up nice AirBNBs and calling my buddies up to plan such a guy's trip that very night... and I wouldn't even attempt to hide my actions in front of my wife. But I admit I can be petty and vindictive.

Haha, OMG, that would be crazy! Honestly, I'm not interested in anyone except her. If I wanted to make her jealous, I could do it without going that far.

The following day I'd probably come to my senses and realize that my wife has certain boundary issues that need to be addressed, as well as concern for her drug use and acting like a college student when she's a wife and mother. I would ask my wife that I think she needs to talk to a license therapist to address these issues before she dives head first into a midlife crisis and blows everything up.

See, I can set new boundaries, but in this particular situation she's working on a project that could make around $300k–$400k. That's a lot of money. We've never interfered in each other's professional lives, so that's why I'm confused.

Right, but she didn't come home excited about the prospect of this ludicrous "career opportunity" and share it with you...

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 5:57 PM, Monday, June 29th]

We've never interfered in each other's professional lives, so that's why I'm confused

.

Then you have to play the 'trust but verify' game.

Everything you have told us leaves me screaming 'gaslighting' but you know her far better than we do so, as the saying goes 'trust your gut'. My gut is telling me something has gone on here.

If you really cannot reconcile this in your own mind then you may need to look at other avenues and that may mean a P.I.

Then you have to play the 'trust but verify' game.

Everything you have told us leaves me screaming 'gaslighting' but you know her far better than we do so, as the saying goes 'trust your gut'. My gut is telling me something has gone on here.

I couldn't find a single piece of evidence that she cheated on me. I agree there are many things that point in that direction, which is why I asked her directly. Honestly, there aren't any obvious gaps in her story, but her actions were definitely not okay.

Going to the gala or chatting with Marcus about my jealousy crossed a line. If I build my case around those actions and push her hard to cut him off, she probably will. But I'm not sure that would have a positive impact on our marriage. I might end up taking away a great project from her, and she could end up resenting me for it.

So if I am following correctly, your wife can do certain things with men but you cannot do the same with women? Double standard? Rules for thee but not for me?

I get the impression your wife has you wrapped around her finger and knows she can get away with pretty much whatever she wants. And if something upsets you all she has to say is sorry, Pat your hand, and you are placated

Does anyone else find it an incredible coincidence that these four women went to a music festival, met up with a group of single men, one of the women, allegedly, brought a change of clothes that Dirk's wife came home in, and one of these guys just happens to be involved in the same industry as Dirk's wife, and has a potential opportunity for her to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars?

And she never bothers to mention this opportunity to her husband? Saw no reason to explain to her husband that she was having lunch with this guy?

The "what else did you look at" comment is the important part.
Don’t believe you looked at everything? I mean, you admitted to what you saw. She didn’t think to herself that you know everything, she was wondering if she was going to have to admit to something more if you had found whatever other thing is.